Yeah, no, Im grateful for Steve to take part in this. When Matthew 1:25 writes, Joseph kept Mary a virgin until she gave birth to a son, the specific Greek words [foreign language 00:02:06] when translated until, is used consistently in the New Testament to refer to a change in condition. Hebrews 9:27 says, Its appointed for men to die once, but some people die twice. While the wages of sin is death refers to spiritual death, that is the second death. Thank you very much, Trent. Because the details about whether she died or not have not been given to us in the deposit of faith, that particular fact has not been given to us. So whenever you want to begin, I will click the 10 minute button. So when it comes to Mary, idolatry would occur if we were to give Mary worship that is due to God alone. I would like to demand that everybody hit that like button. Thats all I got. While the Greek word adelphos, translated brothers, can have numerous meetings in scripture, the specific Greek word adelphi, translated sisters, only has two. Christian authors, however, never present a list of inspired books written before the time of Christ that matches the Protestant Old Testament canon. Just keep it shorter than his response. And they talks about how they offered cakes on alters to Mary. These would be children from his previous marriage, making them adoptive brothers and sisters, and as such, they would be fully Jesuss brother and sister, the full use of the word adelphos. Jesus does not rebuke her. This contradicts the last dogma of the Bodily Assumption of Mary to Heaven infallibly defined ex cathedra by Pope Pius the 12th in 1950, which states after the completion of her earthly life was assumed body and soul into the glory of heaven, which strongly implies she died first. One of them is about the false typologies that are used by contemporary Catholic apologists in order to justify Mary being the new ark, and I explain Dont go to it now. Ive addressed some of them, but Ill address those other points hes brought up in my next rebuttal period. He was content to let go and die a natural death. It is a matter of which authority are you willing to submit to. Go to Case For Catholicism, if you want more. While Jesus was conceived by the holy spirit, the Psalmists wrote, In sin, my mother conceived me. Echoed later by the apostle Paul all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. The Greek word translated all [foreign language 00:08:51] translated everyone, which includes Mary in her conception, but obviously not Jesus since scripture explicitly states, Jesus was without sin. And my focus was on the word, adelphi, which Trent really didnt focus on, on his opening statement. Born So we wouldnt be surprised that Septuagintal constructions would be used in the New Testament, including the fact that [foreign language 00:26:54] can imply a reversal as it does in the Greek gold Testament but it wouldnt be surprising to find it in the New Testament. Yeah. Okay. She's on Steve Korrnacki show making excuses to end the Bridgegate commitee investigation she's obviously a Christie apologist . If it was an eyewitness account, I suppose someone would had to have been informed about that. Now Steve said that Matthew 1:25, and others have said this, based off the doctoral work of Eric [Svenson 00:26:02], that the Greek construction [foreign language 00:26:06] in this verse always demands a reversal of condition. So unlike Twitter and YouTube, Im not going to get banned from saying the sorts of things I say that go against secular dogma. No, I dont think you are following my point. Agreed. I mean, its quite possible theyre born of different mothers, but theres no evidence for us to pursue that route. Of course, this objection becomes a problem for Protestants since by this standard, many of their doctrine like sola scriptura, eternal security, sola fide would also arrive too late in church history to count as being apostolic. According to Robert Sungenis, president of Catholic Apologetics International, unlike Jesus Ascension assumptions in the Bible are under the power of God not the individual being assumed. Can a person with a human nature die even if they are free from sin? So this question is for Steve and this comes from Kevin, whos a local supporter. Can it be used in the case without contradicting scripture? Offering a sacrifice to Mary would be an inappropriate. None of the authors of the deuterocanonical books refer to a delineated list of writings (Hebrew, Ketuvim) within a closed Hebrew canon that did not include their own works. In fact, the Protestant reformers, John Calvin said of Matthew 1:25, No just and well grounded inference can be drawn from these words of the evangelist as to what took place after the birth of Christ. Martin Luther even called this argument against Marys Perpetual Virginity based on Matthew 1:25 babble and without justification. Just like Jesus and Mary did not have glorified bodies, Jesus did not have a glorified body during his earthly ministry, he briefly revealed it on the Mount of Transfiguration, but Jesus was not going about in his glory during his earthly ministry. In his 15 NFL seasons, Christie converted 336 of 431 (77%) field goals and 468 of 473 (98%) extra points, giving him a total of 1,476 points. And of course we can get into the whole Latria and Dulia argument, but thats not what this debate is actually about. Hallo.com/mattfred. Yes, and I also have a video about Protestant inconsistent use of typology where Protestants have no problem even seeing very rough connections, typologically, to Jesus in the Old Testament, but then apply a much harsher standard when those same typological connections or better ones show Mary in the Old Testament. He graduated from UNIVERSITY OF MIAMI / SCHOOL OF MEDICINE in 1995. Well, first of all, I would say that I disagree with Trent as a Catholic as how you define the word church, that in Roman Catholicism church is defined specifically as the Pope of the magisterium, and then when you get baptized in the church, you become part of that. So Trent, what are some arguments that you hear Catholics put forth for any of the dogmas we are discussing today, that you wish they would stop putting forth because theyre bad arguments? Finally, this debate is not about Marian doctrines or theological opinions about Mary. Fair enough, Steve shaking his head no, but well leave it at that for now. But maybe are there other verses that have talked about that Mary gave birth to other children and so she would not be a perpetual Virgin? Can you give one example in the New Testament where it describes God or Jesus being a preemptive savior instead of a redemptive redeeming savior? By contrast, some quoted Sirach as a book of Scripture, though it was eventually excluded. The question for Joseph-. Get a Quote *The mortgage payment quiz is for estimation purposes only. Hebrews 11:35 describes a group of people in the Old Testament period who were tortured, refusing to accept release, that they may rise again to a better life. The only record of this is found in 2 Maccabees 7, which describes brothers who accept torture at the hands of the Seleucids instead of eating pork and violating Jewish law. Debate: Do Protestants Have the Correct Old Testament Canon? Trent, in your recent podcast rebutting Ray Comfort, you said Jesus is the only person referred to as the son of Mary. The proclamation on Marys immaculate conception says that the fathers unanimously believe that which is false. This means Mary was earthy like Adam, before she was heavenly once Jesus redeemed and delivered her. So Mary being assumed into heaven, dying, which is the majority view among theologians, does not show that she had sin. So thats also a bad argument. Second, the Zechariah killed in 2 Chronicles was the son of Jehoiada, not Berechiah. Mary doesnt take the place of Christ. Trent mentioned about dying once. Well, a lot to cover here. Second Corinthians is clear, God made him who knew no sin to become sin for us. Yeah. God is Marys savior because he regarded her lowly state and shes been lifted out of it by being called to bring the Messiah into the world. Thank you, Steve. But renowned Protestant Greek grammarian Bill Mounce says Jesus reference to Nicodemus as the teacher of Israel is actually a sarcastic rebuke. And then hopefully, in my next turn, Ill be able to address some of the other arguments that Steve has raised. Its a good question. Okay. Because thats what the Catholic Answers encyclopedia states. Steve Christie Geoffrey Stephen Christie Position: K 6-0 , 195lb (183cm, 88kg) Born: November 13 in Oakville, Ontario (Age: 55-107d) College: William & Mary Weighted Career AV (100-95-. The first is if you are watching right now and you are not yet subscribed to this YouTube channel, click subscribe, click the bell button. But the only thing we should offer on an altar is the body and blood of Jesus Christ, the lamb of God that he has given to us at Calvary. And I could talk about what that verse means in a lot of different context, but what is the difference between being sinful and becoming sin? Itll make me feel really good if nothing else. Hallow.com/mattfred, click the link in the description below. Jackson Memorial Hospital. This is hard, isnt it? And I would say the same applies to Mary, were just having different views about what counts as divine revelation. Okay. All right, so the Bible does not say that Mary committed a sin. Not everything we believe is found explicitly in sacred Scripture. It sounds like you are using it for your view of Jesus in a very unique way. And notice that Steve kept saying, Yeah, it says all have sinned. Jesus, of course, is the exception. This is something Paul gave as concession, not as command to others. My point though was to show that the Marian dogmas do not contradict Scripture. But anyways, Im going to come back to that. Itll change your life, no doubt. Thats the purpose of their assumptions. Now in the Septuagint as well as in the New Testament, adelphos is used to talk about people who have the same father but different mothers. And it all goes down to the authority of Scripture. Dear catholic.com visitors: This Catholic Answers website, with all its free resources, is the worlds largest source of explanations for Catholic beliefs and practices. Okay. He might say that its unlikely, he doesnt accept it, but theres no contradiction also if she is thankful to God for being preemptively saved from sin. I mean, to quote Jimmy Akin, when he was asked, Did all the early church fathers agree? He says, Boy, did they not all agree? So there was a lot that the early church disagreed on and there was things that they agreed on, things that Trent would agree on and theres things that they agreed on that I would actually believe in. So Steves defending the affirmative. So since Jacob is referred to as the son of Isaac, and Reuben as the son of Jacob, then were they only children? The wrongs I have done are not hidden from me.. What you ended up finding also from this, as well as other dogmas, when you go back to it, you find a lot of these dogmas originating in apocalyptic literature. Yeah. Back to top Alert abuse. Sure. So Steve, we agree And I didnt mean to bring up the dogma Theotokos mother of God in any kind of underhanded way or way to go against our previous agreement because when people hear Marian dogmas, they think of the four of them. So if you got a hallow.com/mattfred right now, click that link in the description below, youll get a three month trial. So does this mean that James was Zebedees only son? Now, as I said, we do find this in other roughly contemporary literature. He made all 27 extra-point attempts and 23 of 27 field goal tries in his rookie season. It follows that Mary is the mother of God. He currently resides in Bradenton, Florida, with his wife Kelly and their four daughters. . Ye, because Jesus younger half sibling was Joseph while Jesus father was God. H. And then take heart in knowing that these teachings about Mary dont contradict Scripture, and then we can further infer and try to understand what are the sources of divine revelation. But those who knew the family, why he is called the son of Mary is interesting, and a good explanation is that he was born of Mary, and that Mary was Josephs second wife. Some people might even accuse you of idolatry. But while infants may not have committed a personal sin, they still need salvation in Christ because they inherited original sin. My goal today is to show that the Marian dogmas do not contradict Scripture. And I really appreciate that you are arguing against Catholicism based on what she teaches, right? Yeah, no, no, no. SeanMcDowell.org. And hes not. All right. So they probably were aware of something very special about her at that time. And then whenever you start speaking, Ill click the time. I wish that all were as I myself am. Since Mary and Joseph wouldve been the most chaste holy family, this would not apply to them. Because once again, not every truth of the faith, not every truth about first century life, for example, has been handed down to us. If you like todays episode, become a premium subscriber at our Patreon page and get access to member only content. The point I want to raise there is that adelphi has the same semantic range as adelphos. So just because this Psalm talks about my mothers sons, it doesnt imply that Mary gave birth to other children. And Catholics are very clear, we do not believe anything that contradicts what we find in sacred Scripture. January 07, 1964. And in fact, in the Old Testament, only begotten and firstborn are used interchangeably. Sean McDowell, Ph.D. is a professor of Christian Apologetics at Biola University, a best-selling author of over 18 books, an internationally recognized speaker, and a part-time high school teacher. So Im going to ask the question again and see if youll answer it. Aaron Frederick, one of my YouTube subscribers, rightly observed, In a courtroom, evidence that is thrown out or dismissed by a court cannot be used to find a verdict. What about the other Marian Dogmas? Mary always leads us to her son. So this question is for Trent. In his recent book Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, Protestant apologist Steve Christie claims that all Christians should accept the Protestant Old Testament canon and reject the deuterocanonical books of Judith, Tobit, Baruch, Wisdom, Sirach, 1and 2 Maccabees, and portions of Daniel and Esther. That sums it up. Its [inaudible 01:14:35]. Not just saying that because theyre paying me, although that definitely helps. And in this case, infallibility would only cover the definition that Mary was conceived free from original sin and free from sin her entire life. Can you repeat the question real quick? Okay. The son of Jonah? Well, I would say that it contradicts it because if she was indeed sinless, Mary would not have been bodily assumed into heaven for the reasons I stated in my opening statement. I mean, actually you and I would agree on this. Okay, Trent. Second Samuel 6:23 says, Michal the daughter of Saul had no child to or eos the day of her death. Which of course she did not have children after she died. I think thats really terrific. This was the view that St. Augustine said, when he said that in Psalm 69:5, the mother is not married, but Israel and the brethren are the other sons of Israel who spurn him. Okay. Christie claims that Jesus declaration to the Pharisees about all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar was actually an endorsement of the Protestant Old Testament canon. I do believe thats good evidence that Mary was Josephs second wife, at least thats my personal view, but that doesnt prove that Mary didnt give birth to others. But let me get to that point about death though. This sure is fun, isnt it? Thank you and God bless everyone. He serves as a staff apologist for Catholic Answers, where he specializes in teaching Catholics to graciously and persuasively engage those who disagree with them. Yet the presence of those exceptions doesnt disprove the nearly universal truth the sacred author was affirming. So thats all up there as well. General Discussion (Forum) Main. And I would also address that Luke actually specifically states that it is a salutation. Juan R. Vlez It only states that Jesus was an exception to this because he had a divine nature, not a sinful nature, as well as a human nature. No. What about after the apostolic age? They also allude to events and stories contained in these texts. Its free to watch the podcast. All right. It can mean half-sister, stepsister, sister-in-law.. In Luke 3:1 its used to describe Herod Antipas and Herod Philip who had the same father, but they were born of different mothers, just as Jesus and his brethren were born of different mothers. The earliest source sharing in this view that she died first is from the Dormition. Thats why theyre diverging traditions on whether Mary died or not, but you dont find the first denial of Marys assumption until in the late early middle ages. Christie, who grew up in Oakville, Ontario, graduated from The College of William and Mary and made his NFL debut with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers in 1990. Well, right. Did their authors believe God had stopped speaking decades or centuries earlier? Jesus is never referred to as a preemptive savior, but as a redeeming, delivering savior, which includes redeeming and delivering Mary from her sins. Well, the relevance is the fact that the word adelphos for brother, the primary meaning means a biological sibling, so unless theres a reason in the context of [inaudible 01:13:28]. Okay. Primary meaning of the word adelphos can either refer to having the same biological mother or father. Now the doctrine of original sin is true, but the Bible does not explicitly say that it applies to every single individual without exception. When it came to the immaculate conception, Steve did not really put forward any argument to show Mary sinned herself. And see, heres the thing. One other point that I would raise is that other arguments that Protestants use to try to show that Jesus had brothers simply dont work. They go into the glory of God. Trent had mentioned about, Well, it could mean sister-in-law. Well, the apostle John actually quoted from the Old Testament, from the Septuagint, frequently. He says, Steve. After all Ive done for you, and you just sit there, you watch this, you dont click that thumbs up button. Because you could say, Well, Solomon is the son of David, but David had many other children besides Solomon. This dogma was defined by Pope Pius the ninth, but not ex cathedra in 1854 and is not shared by the Eastern Orthodox, despite not skisming with the West until the 11th century demonstrating that this was a much later development foreign to the New Testament writers and the early church. In week 10 vs. the New England Patriots, Christie kicked a 48-yard field goal in rainy conditions with just seconds to play, forcing the game into overtime. So lets tie all of this up a little bit. When Jesus mother and brothers approach him later in verse 31, Jesus contrasts his biological brothers who dishonored him with his disciples, who were his spiritual brothers, who did the will of God. If Mary was conceived sinless and kept the law perfectly, then Christ could not be her savior. I just want to make sure. Second thing I want to point out is you should consider joining our locals community. It was only four yards short of the all-time NFL record. No, the Bible never says Mary gave birth to anyone else and no one else is called a son or daughter of Mary. Regarding proof from scripture, for this dogma founder and senior fellow of Catholic Answers, Karl Keating wrote There is none, in his book, Catholicism and Fundamentalism understanding that these three Catholic Marian Dogmas contradict scripture has twofold importance. In fact, the authors of these texts, such as Sirach, described writing down Gods wisdom to indicate they were writing Scripture, which wouldnt make sense if they thought the canon was closed. We are going to be moving into a time of cross-examination where each debater will get 10 minutes each. This uncertainty continued for several hundred years into the Christian era, and the Jewish canon wasnt closed until the third or fourth century. Timothy Lam, in his book Formation of the Jewish Canon, agrees: Paul belonged to a Jewish sect that had a canon that was determined but not yet defined. Hes simply talking about Jesus being the firstborn. All it shows is that even though she was free from sin, she still had human nature, and human nature is corrupted and mortal. But even at that, the Greek word for adelphi, in the Old Testament, when its used, its used even in a translation, not to mean anything other than a biological sister or a believing sister, like the sister nations of Israel and Judah. Also death is not a sign of being a sinner, as Steve alluded to earlier. And for Protestants, thats the same as well, because the doctrines of the canon of Scripture, or even Sola Scriptura itself are not found explicitly in Scripture. In week 9 vs. the New York Jets, Christie went 3 for 4 on field-goal attempts (20, 29, & 34 yards). Being sinful is saying that you have inherited original sin and becoming sin means that sin was imputed to you. It is not considered inspired. So Im well aware of that. Yeah. Were debating whether scripture contradicts it, and that has not been demonstrated here. As I said before, thats not what were debating today. Well, in your example, its talking about father. And weve also addressed that frequently at catholic.com. And then Steve, because Steve, I can tell that youve really wrestled with what Catholicism teaches. But there are many problems with this speculative argument. Richard Bauckham, for example, says, The word adelphi, hes an eminent New Testament scholar, need not mean full sister. Okay. Im not saying thats a required view, but its a quite plausible one. Geoffrey Stephen "Steve" Christie (born November 13, 1967) is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League, who, as a member Steve Christie - Top podcast episodes The danger of submitting to this fallible authority extends to submitting to their authority of their unbiblical view of salvation of infusion of grace through the sacraments, which also contradicts Scripture, which teaches justification by imputation of grace by faith alone. Yeah. Had Adam not sinned he would be alive today, as well as Mary had she not inherited Adam sin nature, a view shared by Catholic Answers and the Second Council of Orange. He became sinner. Like infant baptism, the cessation of charismatic gifts, for example. For example, we could ask the question were the apostles baptized? All right. Trent, you have 10 minutes to cross examine Steve, whenever you begin. May 31, 2022. Yes. But it doesnt demand for that though. Exodus 2:10 says Moses became the son of Pharaohs daughter, even though she adopted him. Steve Christie is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League, who, as a member of the Buffalo Bills, became known for his ability to kick clutch field goals, even in poor weather. Luke 2:7 describes Jesus as the firstborn of Mary, although the Greek word [foreign language 00:04:11] translated firstborn, can indicate firstborn opening the womb and is used this way in the New Testament. Without separating the Marian dogmas from them are where these much, much later Marian dogmas developed from and later forced into the text, which would have been foreign to the biblical writers. Okay. So Steve is saying that the word adelphi, which means sister. Okay. One, ones natural sister, such as a sister of the same parents or a half sister or, two, a believing sister, such as a Christian sister. No, I can think of anything like that, but I would say that Marys status as being the God bearer would mean thered be many truths that are quite unique to her that we dont find in either old or New Testament. I already have. We discuss his books, with the most popular being Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, and well as leading Bible studies in his home. It has all the free resources including the Study Guide to his first book, all his Bible studies, and his contact info: Steve Christie has also appeared on the Third Man Podcast: Steve Christie has written several books: WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the Protestant Old Testament Canon. And so when we look to Mary, we always follow the words that she uttered to the servants at the Wedding Feast of Cana, Do whatever he tells you. And Jesus tells us to honor our father and mother, and we should honor his father and mother. . We discuss his books, with the most popular being Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, and well as leading Bible studies in his home. For example, Jesus said among those born of women none was greater than John the Baptist (Luke 7:28)and John was not a Pharisee. Heres one, Trent, I dont like and I wonder what you think about it. This means that there was no single, closed Hebrew canon during the time of Christ, and some Jews considered the deuterocanonical books to be Scripture. Mean that James was Zebedees only son his opening statement become sin for us to give Mary worship that the. Other children the second death Christ because they inherited original sin and becoming sin means that was. Children after she died first is from the Septuagint, frequently family, this is... Meaning of the other arguments that Steve kept saying, yeah steve christie apologist says. Only four yards short of the all-time NFL record steve christie apologist the law perfectly then... 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